"What a heck of a heaven it will be, when they get all these hypocrites assembled there!" Mark Twain.

Will you be going to heaven? I wouldn't get my hopes up if I were you. First of all Heaven is not what you think. Early man looked up at the stars and because he had no other explanation, he created heaven. All those twinkling lights must souls in heaven. Yup. Thats what they were for a long time. Then some idiot invented science and worse, the telescope. Then heaven moved to some unknown location. (For a while there if you went to Jupiter and took a left, you might find it, but not anymore). Where is heaven now? Can we get there in human form? If we could travel at the speed of light, could we get there? No. Its moved to another dimension now. Its unreachable for mortals.

But for argument's sake, lets say you find heaven. All Christians believe they are going to heaven, right? But Christians are as common as grains of sand in a desert. Not all of you will get in. I think I am better off because people like me are scarce. But when you are standing before St. Peter, or whoever guards the gates of heaven, in all your Christian glory, you might be asked, "So what did you do with your life?"

You'll say, "I am a Christian."

Peter will say, "Oh man... another one? Do you have any idea how many Christians we have in heaven now? I'm afraid we've filled our quota on Christians. You'll have to go somewhere else."

"Where else can I go?" (having left yourself with few options).

"Well" says St. Peter, "according to your religion, you've got purgatory or heck but if you're not a Catholic, well... I guess its heck."

"But" you'll say, "I don't care for either of those options. I've been a good Christian all my life. Why can't I gain entry into heaven?"

"Well... because we are just way over the limit on Christians. You should have been something else, something unique. I'm sorry, but there are just too darn many Christians in heaven right now, and since people come to heaven forever, you might be out of luck."

"What do you mean? What will I do?"

"Maybe you should have died sooner... Ever hear of suicide? Might that would have been the way to go."

"So, what am I to do?"

"Well, if you see an atheist on your way down, tell him to come on up. We have a kind of a shortage of them around here."

Wouldn't that be something?

J

You know, I’ve been pretty patient, and I’ve let a few remarks slide, but enough is enough. This is a multi-denomination and belief system forum. One in which ALL members may share and exchange faiths and philosophical experiences/knowledge. I don’t care if you are intolerant of Christians, Catholics, Homosexuals, people with black hair, or anyone else for that matter, but you do not have the right to mock, ridicule, or harass anyone for any reason, and I for one believe making jokes about other’s beliefs/faiths, especially out of your own petty bigotries and hates, are small, bitter, arrogant, and in full blatant violation of forum rules. I am not a moderator, or administrator, owner, or any person of authority on this forum, but as a fellow minister, and a CHRISTIAN, I find your post highly offensive. Your beliefs are not mine, but I do not have the right to submit my annoyance for your kind. No, I do not mean Atheists, but I do mean bigots.
As a Christian, I try my best to love and show love for all people. But being a person, I have my tests, and struggle with abuse in any form. You my friend are proving to be an advanced course in overcoming my struggles. If you can’t discuss your position or belief without bashing or making fun of some other belief, then perhaps you have no real belief at all, just hate.

God’s blessing,

Rev. Campbell.

Please, be careful to make sure you report the right posts I really don't want to be censored for the wrong reasons.

Actually, I think he is attempting to find religion in rebellion and as such so have many others. I hope he will learn to communicate in a way that is less offensive to more people; but I can see some of the questions behind his rants. There are others that are far more annoying and are doing so with every intention.

Dear Br. Joseph,

I really have no idea about rebellion in his post on "God will not help undeserving" thread, but refering to Christians as being "dummer" than a sack of hammers, does not sound like anything but the hurtful lashing out of a bigot. (And yes, I see the same as you do, but the personal or faith attacks have stopped for that one, or at least I think so, I haven't been following there too close). I would point out the obvious in his statement I just quoted, but that would be my own lashing out. I can see you are trying to be a peaceful and understanding soul, however, this is not the first person I have come across on this forum who were just as disrespectful. Just last year I remember one poster who persecuted Pagans, and another who ranted about Jehova's Witnesses. They too were informed of their offense by me and as I recall a few others. Intolerance tolerated on this forum, for what ever reason, or to who ever or what ever group, cannot be ignored for fear of condoning with silence. Though I may not offer many opinions, I do have my limits. Hope you understand my position too.

God's blessings,

Rev. Campbell.

“Are you going to Heaven?”

I am already there.

As for finding religion in rebellion: 2. An act or a show of defiance toward an authority or established convention.

What long haired, sandal wearing, peace loving hippy does that remind you of?

Buddha was a rebel too. Oh, what about Moses? Ben Franklin rebelled. Galileo was arrested for being a rebel. Anne Hutchinson, Jean d’Arc, Rosa Parks, and on and on and on…..

Friends,
My post, although offensive, was meant to be shocking. You are right, I have very little tolerance for Christians. I believe in science, not science fiction. I was not indoctrinated (brainwashed) into Christianity as a child. I thank my parents for that gift everyday. It has allowed me to think with an open mind, not from a position of bias.

Everything I believe I believe because of my own experiences in life. I have "chosen" not to believe in the bible because it is obsolete in this day and age. While it may contain some words of wisdom that are true of mankind regardless of the century, most of it is the stuff of magic.

So I will probably go away pretty soon and get out your hair. I can do no good here. My message can't be heard over the din of Christianity. It was foolish of me to come here in the first place. I don't belong here.

I'd like to appologize for my "sack of hammers" comment, however I am not going to. It might have been a bit much, but if you could see through my eyes, if you could feel my frustration, you'd think that people must be morons to say they honestly believe in this stuff. But you are correct. You do have the right to believe whatever you wish, it scares me that modern people believe in magic.

J.

Rev. Joseph;
It saddens me to see so many on this earth who have only reliance upon themselves to acheive happiness and peace on their own. Whether one is a follower of a religion, a god/goddess, a faith, or is an agnostic searching for truth, or an atheist embittered at an unfair indoctrination process, the one thing that all of humanity can pursue is the love and tolerance of one another, mutual respect which provides dignity for every creature, a pursuit of higher values than those which have failed humanity in the past, and a better way to provide equality for all people, food, shelter, clothing, safety, and security. It does not require one to believe in magic or witchcraft, a talisman worn around the neck, or any other mystical person, place, or thing. All it requires is the ability to seek deeper within oneself and to have the willingness to treat others as you would like to be treated. Through this, we can change the world. Some use their faith in God as an anchor to ground oneself, or a foundation from which to build. Others seek great philosophical idealogies which provides them a moral and ethical base. Whichever one chooses, it should always be used in a way that will enhance the human conditions around the world and to improve the quality of life for others. When these things are used to humiliate, embarass or beleagure others, then we are not holding true to the values we have chosen as an ideal to live by. I would entreat you to consider these things with an understanding that you are a part of this world whether you like it or not. And frequently, I don't like it either. But so long as I am here, I may as well see what good I can do for others. As I am attempting to do for you right now. Whatever your decision, I will respect it and wish you strength and courage to bear the onslaught of a very imperfect world. But to bear it alone can be a very miserable experience. I know, because I have tried......Peace be with you.....To`na Wanagi

Heaven, I don't know about. I've been really bothered by the statements of well meaning Christian ministers and believers who state that deceased loved ones are in heaven. Say the hands of GOD, say a better place, but don't say they're in heaven as if you have some certitude.

That's not what their Bible says. Actually it describes heaven as a very difficult place to get there, as far as I decipher. Heaven, heck or somewhere in between, I guess I will go wherever I'm meant to be. I'm willing. While I am here though, and since it may be all there is, I want to be happy, illuminated and uplifted. I want to share that with others. Actually I would often forgo my own happiness for others. I would bear their burdens if I could.

It has been my thought for a long time that we are all born into the camp of the Devil. We might be oblivious to it, everything might seem shiny and happy, but it's right here, this pervasive evil. It's in control of the governments, of the industries, of everything man undertakes. Even religions are permeated with it, with what they've become and how far so many of them have strayed from the message of compassion. Are we not told over and over in many tomes to treat our enemies with honor?

Respect.

If I seemed on some of my previous posts to you, J, a bit snippy and defensive, it's because I am. You seemed on the attack. I'm like a chihuahua. or maybe it's a pitbull.

whichever, size is relative.

I think you should stay on the forum. I realize Christians seem crazy, but it's just a belief system. corrupted and confused. MOST people who would profess to be Christians are of the same sinful band I run with. We are all in this camp together.

Now see, I wish you would take that He-is-more-to-be-pitied-than-scolded attitude as if you are somehow better than me, but you are willing to tolerate me because you think you know me. You don't. But I will say this. There is no reason to pity me. I have a good life, make a good living; I have wonderful children, and a ton of friends. I am an author, a musician, and a professor. I am in much better shape than a lot of people today. Is it luck or fate? I don't think so. I made conscious decisions to return to college, get a job, and then get my Master's degree. Those were my choices to make and I made them.

J

Rev. Joseph,

I’m glad there is no reason to pity you, and I think you are very blessed for having so much in your life that you appreciate. But though I cannot speak for To`na, I can assure you she had no attitude. If she said she has pity for you it is because she does. You can take her at her word and have faith that it is as she intended, as she does not claim to be a Christian. I don’t know where she said she knew you, or even pretended to know you, but like all posts, she responds as I do; according to what is posted.
Sometimes people say things they actually mean without having some hidden meaning behind the words they write. (Note, I said sometimes. Usually depends on the poster though).

God’s blessings,

Rev. Campbell.

I used to be really smart, and frustrated at the stupidity of people around me.
Then one day, I realized, they are not really stupid. They are just not awake.
Most people only ever react to life. They never really act. They have no idea what they are doing. They make assumptions based on preconditioned patterns that they have never thought about.
When they take the time to open their eyes and pay a little attention, people are actually pretty smart. (Even Christians ). Faith does not make you stupid, having a closed mind and a closed heart does. After all the first word in ignorance is ignore.
Ignorant: 3. Unaware or uninformed.

I was trying to be kind and to encourage you to stay.

As you have listed all the wonderful things you have going in your life, I must ask; what is missing? What are you searching for? The answers to the universe? Yeah, me too....and probably ever person I have ever met. In 1970 I wrote a few short lines, "I am looking for something that is lost...but it isn't. I have found something...but it isn't there. Happiness is found only in its search." I wish you the same.....To`na Wanagi

Well..I pity her too.

J

I pity those too closed minded to consider the possibility of there being a God; just as much as those who shove him or her (as their views may go) down my throat. Both are equally intolerant and in the dark.

But the it is your choice what to do with the facts presented. May it serve you well.

A word of warning; acting out solely in under enlightened rebellion, and defiance of the known and accepted beliefs of others that you choose to despise will frequently cause great distress in ones life. It is far better to be polite and not kick the teeth of those whom you may wish to have as friends.

Many more scientists elect to believe in a higher controlling power (God) than do not. Why do you think this is.?. Evolution does and can not yet explain all things and the tools used in establishing many parts of the evolutionary idea have been shown inaccurate. Does this mean that the world is not incredibly old well once again there is no 100% proof that it has been around since no one human alive was present at the time of creation. We do not have the ability to duplicate the creation of a world to verify the hypothesis beyond the conceptualization stage. And so Those who might know best how the earth was formed for some reason choose to believe in a higher being which they call God.

Spitting in everyone's face will tend to only lead to your exclusion from the party. Try being conversational and polite and you may make a much better impression.

I pity those who are so closed-minded they overlook the facts in favor of magic. Those who will not even entertain the idea that they could be wrong. Atheists are ridiculed for not listening to preaching, but the religious are no different.

Scientists believe in a higher power because like me they can't buy into the universe having always been there. Their beliefs have little to do with eveloution. They are not idiots. They are intelligent people who aren't going to ignore the facts. They are the people who discoverd the facts.

That is all.

J

Science is a constantly changing field. Scientists revise, change, or discredit the "facts" all the time. They bend the data, or even make things up to support their theories. They cite sources that are not always reliable. Some flat out lie. Scientists are human, fallible, and subject to personal opinion.
I remember when Pluto was a planet, cholesterol was bad, floride was good, and extra iodine was needed in your diet. All of this has changed.
Ever hear of global cooling?

Hey, I love science and the whole theory of creation from evolution to creationism! The big bang theory is one of my favorites and sure seems reasonable to me. The only place I get stuck is when the big bang happened; just where did that first spark of static and the first atom (not Adam ) come from that caused the big boom? Sure is a great mystery to me.

And as far as the evolution of man, I have no problem with it either...except in one place; where did that first spark of conscience and morality come from? What made man different than the great apes, other than a few strands of DNA? When, where, and how did altruistic idealogies come into play?

Science says that energy is never lost but only transformed. So, when a person dies, where does all that electromagnetic energy from the body go? Could it be that it goes to the collective whole? Or, is it possible that this is the very essene of the soul and goes to God? Or, is God the collective whole that is the great mystery?

And where did all this primordial ooze in this limitless universe come from if, in the beginning, there was nothing? These are some of the things Albert Einstein, Steven Hawkings, and some of the greatest physicists of our time have pondered.

Anyone got any ideas that could revolutionize the world of science and theology?........Peace.........To`na Wanagi

Mystic,
The exact same is true of religion, except ALL of religion is made up. Sure scientific theories change when new discoveries are made. Thats why they call them theories. But science has given us a lot, maybe too much. Maybe we were better off without computers, nuclear bombs, and others, but I am definitely glad they found cures for polio, tuberculosis, and small pox.

To'na,
The big bang theory loses its validity for me for the same reason. Where did the material come from that banged? Its not explanation enough for me. For me there is no comparison between science and religion. One is based on theories that have been tested over and over again. The other is simply faith.

J

I test my spiritual theories in my day to day life. Ones that to not work, I discard, ones that do, I keep.
There is no more objectivity in science then there is in religion.
Both have theories which can be tested, and which cannot be tested.
For many, science has become a religion.
Many have faith in the big bang theory, but we cannot test this theory.
Many think it is silly. There is absolutly no way with our current understanding of our universe that we can possibly calculate the amount of matter in it, nor the actual size of it.
When we look at the stars we are looking at light that is, we believe, billions of years old.
One billion is 1,000,000,000. Recorded history only goes back a few thousand years.
Light from the nearest star (excluding the Sun) takes over 4 years to reach Earth.
This is nothing compared to our national debt (USA) which, by the time anyone reads this, will be over $12,357,150,000,000.00 ($12.357 trillion dollars). But hey, whose counting?

4,000.00
I just wanted a closer comparison of those numbers

And also coming back to say, everytime I see this title I want to shout YES!!! Whether I believe it to be true or Not. It's a knee jerk reaction.