Christian or Not?

This weeks posting comes after sometime spent reading postings in The Monastery’s forums. For the benefit of those reading this in forums outside of the Monastery, allow me to give a little background information. The Monastery is a break off church of The Universal Life Church. The basis of the church’s principals seem to be that everyone of any faith is welcome, including those with no faith at all. The concept on paper is very lovely, we are all children of the same universe, and we are all children of God, in whatever meaning the term God may have for you (i.e. Buddha, Allah, Jehovah, Uncle Joe), whatever your God of choice is, the ULC Monastery welcomes you and your God. Primarily the website is used by people who wish to gain a quick ordination to perform a wedding for friends or family, but there are a few of us in the church that utilize the forums to spread the word of our particular faith.

I use the forums to spread the word of Christ as it is shared with us in the Bible (or at least as I understand it through prayer and research). What brings me to this week’s posting is that within those forums there is a great deal of animosity over different interpretations of the same words. It is ironic to me that I find the greatest bickering to be among a church of people that allegedly embraces all faiths and opinions. Please do not think I am categorizing all members of the forums in the Monastery as negative bickerers, on the contrary I find most to be loving and very kind and supportive. However I believe something must be done regarding the divisions within the common faith of Christianity. I post this in all my forums because division within the Christian community is not limited to the Monastery, in fact it is not limited to this day and age.

The Christian community has been in conflict since it’s inception 2000 years ago. From the beginning the apostles and early leaders of the church have had to settle issues arising from false teachings. There have always been questions regarding the morale behavior of Christians, and no doubt, there always will be. We, in our day and age are blessed by the fact that when these questions came to light during the early days of the founding of the Christian faith, they were frequently answered in writing. Most of the writings of the New Testament that follow the Gospels can be attributed in one way or another to settling a dispute regarding matters of Christian life.

The letters attributed the Paul are frequently addressed to churches that he helped found in the lands of the gentiles outside of Palestine. In almost every letter he addresses some concern that has been brought to his attention. We can safely assume this statement to be true simply by the nature of the letters. Why would Paul have taken the time to address issues that did not need addressing? It would make no sense. Surely if the letter to the Romans was simply one to state that he wished to visit them and preach the gospel to them, the book would have ended within the first chapter.

There has been a great deal of controversy surrounding the Bible in recent years (meaning the last 500 or so). Controversy has been raised over the validity of the original texts as well as the accuracy of the translations. I myself, in my younger years, was willing to state that the Bible was written by man, and translated by man, therefore how could this book have so much to do with my daily life? This is the point where faith comes into play.

Through faith we trust in the Lord our God. We allow Him sovereign control over our lives. Those of us who live in true faith do not feel anger or resentment over things we can not change. We know that everything we are put through in our life is part of a divine plan. There are no accidents, there are no twists of fate. We believe through faith that the Bible we have been given to learn and study from was and is the divine word of God. There is no room to modernize this book, or to interpret it in a way that suits our needs, or plays to the current state of the world.

THESE TRUTHS ARE SELF EVIDENT:

WE EITHER BELIEVE THE BIBLE IS THE INSPIRED WORD OF GOD, OR WE DO NOT.

WE EITHER BELIEVE THAT JESUS CHRIST WAS THE SON OF GOD, SENT TO DELIVER US FROM SIN, OR WE DO NOT.

WE EITHER LIVE BY THE MORAL STANDARDS SET BEFORE US IN THE BIBLE OR WE DO NOT.

WE ARE EITHER CHRISTIANS, OR WE ARE NOT!!!

THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND.

Unfortunately your 'self evident truths' get you in a world of trouble!

Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If any one desires to come after Me, let him take up his cross, and follow me. For who ever desires to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world, and loses his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works." Matt 16:24-27

What care have I for a world of troubles brought to me for speaking the words of my Lord?

God's peace.
William

Hey Seeker!
Yeah! You mean the one that starts; "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal. that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these is life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."?

And with all the differents Christian sects, denominations, religions and faiths interpreting the Bible as literal, a a metaphor, as a book of fables(especially Jonah in the belly of the fish), is it any wonder why 1 Timothy 4: 7-8 admonished us, "But have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women. On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness; for bodily disicipline is only of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things, since it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come."

or Jesus' comment; "You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you saying,'This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far away from me. But in vain do they worship me, teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men.'"

Yeah, it was pretty self-evident to Jesus of Nazareth what was already happening to the concept of God's Word of truth. The Christian faith had only just begun, and was arguing amongst itself! Even Peter and Paul disagreed on whether the gospel should be given to those "Gentiles".
I mean, ugh! How could they do such a thing! What on Earth was Peter thinking?! The Gentiles?
And the sad part is that whatever Christian sect or denomination one belongs to, they believe they have cornered the market on truth. Which is why I follow what God directs in my heart and can openly contradict some of the polities with my own little Presbyterian community....because I am speaking my truth and my concerns over their interpretation of what Jesus of Nazareth was actually saying in His parables and stories/metaphors. I am not in complete allegiance with any church, faith or spiritual path because I have found fault in them all. For me to swear allegiance to any institution would ensure that I would also be a hypocrite, having compromised my own integrity. What is self-evident to me is the failure of all organized institutions, secular, non-secular, political, philosophical, or theological t follow and adhere to their own statements of convictions. As Jesus said, "For all have sinned(failed, done wrong) and come short of the glory of God." Yep, even me! How about you? ...Peace to you all....To`na Wanagi

And with thid topic I "shake the sand from my sandal" and bid you all fair well. May you find what you seek.

God Bless

Well said my friend!!

May God continue to guide you with the light of His love!

Jake

Not so much. I mean that as one example, while many say abortion is a crime to be punished, the bible says that if a child does not respect you after they are born you may kill them. I mean that although Jesus said not a word against homosexuality and also said nothing against slavery he was clear on divorce. It's one thing to pick and choose bits to follow and bits to ignore, but who will do the choosing?

Exactly! Well said!

This will most likely be my last posting in this forum, and it saddens me to think that a “church” willing to accept and ordain people of every faith imaginable can be filled with so many members who are both judgmental and closed minded to any belief that they do not share. I, for one, can feel safe to say that though I disagree with so many people in these forums, I have never intended to pass judgment. I have come to these forums first seeking guidance in my journey with the Lord, and stayed to spread His word in an environment where I felt it was needed. I stand by my convictions being the as follows:

The Bible is the divine word of God.

Jesus did die on the cross for our salvation.

And the Bible does provide a blueprint for moral lifestyle that a Christian should follow.

I apologize that my views may have offended anyone, certainly that was never my intention. Those who have followed my posts for the past six months should know that about me, but I understand many will just remember the last thing they see. Fortunately I live by the belief that I do not need reward from man…I seek my reward elsewhere. I will, before I go address the insinuations made in reply to this topic.

First, To`na: You both quote the Bible and discredit it in the same breath…please do not teach what you do not believe. You seem to take offence if you feel someone has judged you, and rightly you should. However you have not hesitated to pass judgment on every organized religion, or as you say…”church, faith, or spiritual path”…you have passed judgment and found fault in them all. It is a mighty seat you place yourself on that you can do such a thing. I suppose I should be grateful you lowered yourself to even read any of my posts. You later in your response go on to judge all governments or governing bodies, they are all hypocritical, and none live up to their ideals. However in other postings you sing the praises of the government of your ancestors…how wonderful that tribal government never knew corruption of any kind. I mean that, I truly do. I do not have the time to research every leader and all their actions of your ancestors, but from how you speak, they must never have raised a tomahawk in any manner other than self defense, and this I find wonderful.

Next on to Seeker: First I would like to know the passage of the Bible that tells us to kill a disobedient child. Granted, I’ve only read through the Old Testament once, but it just doesn’t ring a bell. As for abortion: what sin has an unborn child committed? Some will say the fetus does not yet have a life, it is not yet a person. To this I would ask was Jesus our Savior at conception, or not until birth? I would answer upon conception, therefore a fetus is a life…and the 26,000,000+ abortions that have been committed since Roe v. Wade, constitutes genocide (not literally, but you get my point). You also raise in your response the point of Jesus not addressing the issues of homosexuality, or slavery.

First homosexuality: Jesus, as a devout Jew, never dismissed the laws of Torah. If one believes Torah to admonish homosexuality, that person would also be forced to believe Jesus as well would have. Why does Jesus not mention by name this sin? In the social environment Jesus lived and taught, I don’t believe he needed to. Most people of the region in which Jesus led His ministry, were at least familiar with Torah and it’s commandments. I would feel safe to assume that homosexuality was not common in ancient Palestine. The issue was addressed by Paul when speaking in his epistle to the Romans, because in Rome the practice was common place.

Second slavery: Again, why would Jesus address an issue that did not exist? We could, I suppose compare servitude of His day to what we now know as slavery…there would be after all a fine line between the two. And as for this issue, He instructs servants to be dutiful to their masters, he also instructs the masters to be fair to their servants. We know neither happened.

In conclusion, you both speak of people picking and choosing the bits they wish to follow from the Bible. I have never disagreed with this statement. In fact it is one of the main points in the post that seems to have brought out this ugly side of the ULC ministers. There is no middle ground. I shared, in a recent post, the teachings of Paul again from Romans…”what shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?”. No. It is the easy cop out for everyone to say “this is how God made me, so it must be ok”. Pardon me, but if you’ve read my earlier posts, I am living proof of the ability to rise above the life God gave you, by allowing Him to lift you up. Paul is ancient proof of the same. God did not disperse all the natives from the promised land…why? To see if His children would remain loyal to Him, or would they turn to their own desires. God, through the sacrifice of His Son, gives us all a chance to rise above what we desire. I am proud to say that since the on set of my journey with the Lord at the helm, I have left behind the remaining aspects of wickedness that kept me from walking as close to the way of Jesus as I feel humanly possible. This world is filled with temptation, we must rise above it. When I quit smoking cigarettes, I kept a few at my house…why? Because if I had not, I would have resisted nothing…it is easy to resist what is not accessible. Do I consider myself righteous…absolutely not! I humble myself in prayer every day to ask forgiveness for the sins I know I remain subject to. Will I ever be righteous? I doubt it.

Again, I apologize if for some reason I’ve offended you. It is our calling as ministers of the word of God to do as the twelve were sent out to do. Preach the coming of the Kingdom of Heaven, and bring the multitudes to repentance. This is the calling of every Christian minister, and as such is mine as well.

May all continue to seek the guidance of the One true God.

You attacked GLBT members and used the Christian Bible to do it with. Do you not grasp that this is not at all a Christian only organization and certainly not one which supports division between human beings? Further, many of us do know more than the simple tales told at Sunday School about this particular religion and are aware of the serious problems in this book and are well able to argue them. FWIW, I could argue many of the points you made above as you are wrong on most but I will forbear.

Would you go into a mosque, or a synagogue and start telling people how to think and act? Then why would you do it here where we have a much, much broader spectrum of faiths and beliefs? How could you be less appropriate? This is not a place to proselytize your own view of the universe - it is a place for polite discussion of things we all share as humans no matter our particular creed or sect. I don't want to be preached at by anyone and that goes, I believe, for most here. If you want to find converts, look elsewhere.

Again, I ordained here as a Christian minister. Do you not grasp that fact? My view is every bit as valid in these forums as yours. What I feel the calling of a Christian minister is is to call people to repentance...If my faith and my beliefe troubles you, the trouble is with you, I sleep welll at night.

Would I go into a mosque or synagogue and start preaching?...If I were invited. I thought the concept of the ULC was that all were invited to share thier beliefs on thier faith...my bad. This perhaps is not a multi faith church at all. Perhaps this is a new religion all together?

Greetings to you all my friends,

Alas, I see that once again we run into what is one of the greatest strengths, but also a weakness, of the ULC. That is the fact that in principal the ULC is open and accepting of people of all varieties of faith, from hard core fundamentalist Christian and followers of Islam to the most vocal of Atheists.

It is important to realize that each person here is free and encouraged to express their individual understanding of faith. That way all can learn of the different varieties of faith experiences our members have. In doing so however, there are people whose personal theological viewpoints will be very different from the ones that we may hold. In these circumstances, we must understand that the forum and the ULC exist not to push or advocate the holding of one point of view over another. Nor should any one of us think that it is our duty to get others to change their deeply held views.

In responding to posts that reflect views different from your own, please keep your responses respectful, and keep in mind that just because you believe strongly about any particular issue or matter of faith, this does not make your view a universal truth that all people must hold, or that your view is one that all from your faith tradition agree with.

Remember that what we are doing here is discussing matters of faith, and there is no one single understanding of faith. This is something that each of us experience according to our individual experiences in life, and the insight we have received from the Creator. The journey each of us take on our faith path is different, and the ULC exists to help each of us find our own way, not to insist that any one of us follow a particular trail.

In Christ's service,
Padre

Agree.

Agreed as well.

To`na and Seeker I again apologize to you. I should not have let your opinions bother me as they did. This post was written for the benifit of those that would recieve it. It was not meant as an attack on anyone or an effort to force anyone to my belief. As I re-read the post I stll don't see how it was percieved that way. I was simply saying you either believe the Bible or you do not...not that you must.

This forum will always be a difficult place for all to agree, the nature of the Monastery makes it so. I will refrain from sharing my view points in response to areas in which I disagree with the poster of a topic, out of respect for that persons opinions. I will still post my weekly postings here in the forums, and as always welcome constructive guidance. Please be aware that if you open a topic I have initiated, it will contain a Christian perspective. You need not agree, and you need not read.

Peace to you all.
William

The forum owners have been contacted by me with a request to set up a 'Preaching' area, split into Christian and Other where those who have this urge can post. So far I have not had a reply but I hope they are considering it. For now 'Spiritual Corner' is probably the best place for such threads, preferably tagged to advise as to content. If you really want to argue religion you might find Amazon Religion Forum (LINK) a better place as you will get all of the argument you can handle there.

I also contacted Rev Vash regarding an area for people to post within thier specific belief, we shall see where that leads. I do not wish to argue religion, simply to spread the word that I feel needs to be spread. If it is recieved, great, if not, so be it. I have other areas where I post that I know my message is recieved by like minded people, and I am working towards licensed pastoral ministry with my local church. Should the Lord decide my audience is to be here, MySpace, or the pulpit...His will, not mine be done.

I believe "Comparative Religions: is the place to discuss differences in belief and opinions in regards to the different beliefs of religions, denomination, sects, etc. Howver arguing belief and opininion avails nothing.

I suggest coming to God to be taught truth, His truth. in the one mind, Spirit and truth that is of and from God. In this and by the works of God all come into oneness with God in His truth.

In the love of God,

DW Suiter

I have been since the age of 6 a Christian. I can not really follow some of the hostility of some who call themselves such and begin to understand why it is that Christ called the religious leaders in the temples hypocrites and otherwise undesirable things.

I also grow tired of finding that much of God's love has been lost in translation. I begin to wonder about more and more sections of the recent translations as what was once inspired by God and what has been inadvertently or even deliberately mistranslated from the old languages. I already know of a few and as such I wonder more about others that seem out of context. I also have noticed that most of the people that bring up such mistranslations are one track minded and miss the other erroneously rewritten words often not far from what they just had read off as wrong.

I do not find the bible to be in error just that the translators may not have all been inspired by God. Sodom was not destroyed because they were Fags; it was clearly destroyed because they turned from God and began the self serving worship of man much like some of the churches and other religious groups we have done today.

I find it interesting that the religious rule is to Love God first above all else and second to love your neighbour as yourself. This is a cross religion belief stated clearly in most in one or another form. This is summed up in what most call the golden rule because love is the act of doing for others as you would have them to do for you if you were in their situation and this is how you show your love for God.

If you think I oversimplified that you are mistaken as there is nothing simple about loving your neighbours. Particularly when you do not enjoy their presence.

Amen...

When I had started this thread I must admit I was feeling a bit stressed..my views have lightened recently from the time when this was first written...fundementally my views on the Bible are the same, but my views on sharing the words have lightened.

God's peace,
William

I hate to be a gadfly, but you used a term for homosexuals that is considered a perjorative term. This when you wrote, "Sodom was not destroyed because they were Fags"

I presume, base on your message, that you did not intentionally mean to cause offense.

Shalom,

Peter

As the term Christian was originally a hostile term many Gay (also started as a slur term) have began using the term Fag as easily as Christians call themselves such. Many even are proud of the history behind the term same as the witches that share that terrible history. If anyone took offence I am apologetic.

In humour, I frequently call some overly self aware christians, "churchies" referencing humans being called "Fleshies" by the other ghosts in the more recent Casper film.

I did however use the word fag to get the attention from both sides of this issue since both sides need to learn to behave together I doubt that either are likely to go away soon. I believe the propper term for the way I used the term is power wording ... If a word is taboo and you are not afraid to use it; you have the power over others that are afraid to do so. Voldemort, Voldemort, Voldemort, Voldemort, Voldemort, etcetera